[jensam]

Hi my name is caroline and i am new to this site. My son was diagnosed with autism when he was six years old. My daughter of three is now showing behaviour problems.
She is very, very destructive, breaks things tips things out, rips things. even when she is lying down with me watching tv she has one foot up my nose and trying to pull my nails off with her other hand. She takes her clothes off and rolls around with rice grains or anything she can get hold off. The nursery have said she makes little effort with the other children, dosent speak at nursery and has little concentration.
However she does have good eye contact and does seem to communicate quite well in small broken sentences at home, so i am very confused as to what is wrong with her. She dosent seem autistic but there does seem to be some problem or other. Every day she does something destructive. Has anyone any ideas.

[Speeds]

Hello and welcome from me and my family.

My only advise is that you should go to your GP and Health Visitor and ask to have her assessed just to rule things out.

I ony have one child - my monster Thomas so I have little first hand experience but what you are saying does not sound "normal" - I hate that word though.

Remember ASD is like many other conditions - it affects no two people the same.  Just because someone does not fall in to the typical mould does not allow it to be fully excluded.

I hope you get some answers soon

xx

[Julie]

Hi there and welcome

Your daughter could still be on the Autistic Spectrum although different from your Son's.  Like Speeds said it is best to ask for an assessment.

My son has Asperger's Syndrome which is on the Autistic Spectrum.  It is on the high functioning side but the problems that he faces are mostly social.  He also has ADHD which often accompanys Asperger's and he has always had poor concentration and has been destructive (although he is a little better now that he is .

The Playgroup that he attended raised concerns when he was 3 and we had a diagnosis when he was 5 (which is quite early).  I have really thanked them (however hard it was at the time) for raising these concerns at such a young age, as this meant that by the time he went to school things were in place to help him.  There are many different 'signs' of Asperger's and no two children are the same.  Poor eye contact can by one of them - but it's not one of my sons as he will look you in the eye very well.  Food can be a problem too - often the children will only eat very few items and don't like the food touching each other.  They find it hard to make friends as they do not know how to behave socialy.  Also my son had/has obsessions that change from time to time.  He didn't really play with toys and preferred instead to fiddle with unusual items.  I don't know if any of this is making any sense - but you could have a look on the internet to see if anything else does! 

Good Luck and I hope that you get some answers soon.

Best Wishes
Julie

[jensam]

Thanks for replying. I am taking her to the GP's tommorow for a referal hopefully. Her behaviour is quite bad and she leaves a trail of mess to clear up everywhere she goes. At first i thought naughtiness but its too extreme for that. She clambers all around my head and dosent leave me alone for 5 minutes, confident alert and lively, then at school just squeaks and is really quiet, but not really focused like the other children. My son has much more of the usual autistic traits.

[Julie]

I have to say that your daughter's behaviour does sound a lot like my son's at the same age.  He still likes my attention a lot and interupts when people are talking to me.  He often clambers over me just to get my attention.  Jamie does talk clearly and a lot!  He often gives us a running commentary of all his thoughts - asks questions and then answers them before we can!

Is your daughter sensative to noise and smells at all?  That can be another sign too.  At the same age, my son would much rather be with adults than the other children at his playgroup.  He didn't interact with them at all.  Now he is at school (mainstream) life can be difficult for him, but he does have friends.  These friends really do look after him at school, which is very sweet.  He has a one-to-one all day at school to help him concentrate on the tasks ahead. 
We also found that giving him Omega-3 Fish oil really helped the concentration.  However, we saw poor behaviour at the start of taking it, which later got a lot better.  It appears to have helped him and he can now read and write really well.

Good luck at the GP tomorrow.  I really hope that it sets you on the path to finding some answers.  Let us know how you get on.

[jensam]

Hi,
went to the doctors today. He is going to refer her on to a pediatrition or maybe cams where my son was seen. She just sat threre as good as gold at the doctors!! while i ran through a list of all her unsual behaviour. Yesterday she sat with two pieces of ham on her head, destroyed a  bean bag, white balls everywhere, broke up all the dried long spegetti, pooed on the floor,  unrolled the toilet roll etc etc and finally went to sleep at 10.00. I am now wondering if she has adhd, they say she does not speak at school but never cues up with the other kids and always runs around the other door, dosent speak to the other children and constantly fidgets, pours sand through her hair. The only thing she does similar to her brother is when she comes out of the nursery she runs up to a tree and shouts "tree" she does that everyday. I am really confused.

[Julie]

Well done for getting the ball rolling.  You obviously have experience of Autism with your son, so you know the procedure for diagnosis etc.  It does sound like ADHD (which often crosses over with Asperger's) and I really sympathise as it is HARD WORK!  She is quite young to get a diagnosis, so don't be surprised if you don't get one immediately.  However, if there is no doubt you might get one straight away. 

You say that your daughter did not go to sleep until 10.00, which is very late for a 3 year old - but we've been there too.  Jamie survives on much less sleep than usual for an 8 year old, and takes Melatonin to help him get to sleep.  Whether this would be suitable for a child as young as 3 is another thing - but you might want to keep it in mind for the future (as it has been a revelation to us!)  Jamie has taken up to 3 hours to get to sleep on a school night, but when he takes a Melatonin he gets drowsy within 20 minutes.

Lots and lots of luck for the future and do remember to let us know how you get on when you have seen the paediatrition.

[paula]

Hi and thanks for joining our forum,

Julie has given you some fantastic advice and as she says, it does sound very much like ADHD. Our daughter has this condition too, and although she is not destructive - thank goodness - it is really, really hard work. We read once that living with a child with ADHD is akin to living in a jam jar with a wasp! Everything is at a thousand miles an hour and it does feel some days that you have spent the whole time clearing up after the chaos caused by her! One thing that I would add, is that it would be a very good idea to keep a diary until you see the consultant as this is good evidence to back up your concerns. Don't know about you but I always forget to say certain things when I am in an appointment so this acts as a good memory jogger and also shows the consultant the frequency of your daughters behaviour.

I do hope that you get some help soon and don't forget that there are lots of listening ears on this site.

Paula

[jeg]

Hi,

I agree with the others about the possibility of adhd. What's her diet like? What's her bowels like? Does she toe walk, or posture over furniture or show any other signs of bowel probs?
My son has autism and signs of adhd too. We saw dramatic improvements after removing all artificial flavours, colours, msg, aspartame, nitrates and the biggest WOW! was removing sugar!
We saw significant improvements in sleep, attentio, bowels and behaviours.
He used to go to bed any time between 10 and midnight. It's a killer isn't it?

J

[jensam]

My daughters bowells seem okay however my son is autistic always has loose bowells. i agree food may have something to do with her hypo activity. she isnt a great eater. i think if it wasent for the fact school were saying her behaviour is a bit odd i probably would have seen just how it goes, but having one autistic child does make you wonder.
she really has done some mad things, jumping up and down on the trampoline with no clothes on in the pouring rain with just an umbrella up. the other day she weed in a marigold glove i just sat there in amazement.
Do children with adhd ignore other children and do there own thing, because thats what she does at nursery. they said she is not good at sharing, however is not aggressive with other children, they have to say things to her about five times before she acknowledeges them, although they say everyday she is different. she does walk on tip toes quite a bit although my son never did. when shes upset she runs out the room slams the door and shouts its not fair. shes quite funny really but really exhausting like her brother although his behaviour has improved so much since taking him out of mainstream. Strange how she wont talk to anyone in nursery but will talk to people at home although sometimes she sort of babbles.

[Julie]

Hi again

I am not sure if children with ADHD ignore other children or not, but I do know that children with Asperger's do.  They prefer to speak to Adults rather than other children.  The walking on tip toes is also an Asperger's trait.  It was noted by another parent at a toddler group that our son didn't respond to being spoken to.  I took him to have  a hearing test, but of course it wasn't that at all.  Asperger children find it difficult to share and take turns too.

The food question for hypo activity is debateable for children with ADHD.  Part of the brain is not developed how it should be and the brain in children/people with ADHD works slower than usual.  It then decides to compensate for this and speeds up so that the person goes from one thing to another, can't concentrate and has boundless energy.  Although she is quite young for this, we have been told that coffee helps!  I give my son the occassional cup (though not very strong either) as it has the opposite effect that it would have on you or I and actually slows them down.  It is not a great thing to give your child coffee (I agree) but sometimes it can help (when you are at the end of your tether).

Personally, I think your daughter has Asperger's and ADHD - but then I am not a doctor so don't take what I say as red!

Lots of luck to you and keep in touch.

[paula]

That was a really interesting thing about the coffee Julie - will definitely give that one a try. I suppose it is a similar thing to Ritalin as this is also a stimulant. I am not 100% sure, but I think that children with ADHD are quite interactive in that they but in on other peoples conversations and want to be involved in everything, even if it is to trash it on occasion! I know that Elise is ever so sociable but finds it difficult to play with others as she has not got the imagination or concentration to join in.

Have done quite lot of reading on selective mutism and a lot of children with this will only talk at home as this is the place that they feel safe and not  or pressured. Not saying this is the case with your daughter, but she will inevitably feel more comfortable with you at home so this could explain the difference in her communication levels.

The walking on the toes thing is definitely an autistic trait. Trouble is though, it is very easy to read things in our search for an explanation. You really do need to go and get an assessment. As for jumping on the trampoline in the nude in the rain - sounds fun!! 

[tina]

Hi
Just read your post while I was checking replies to mine.
I have to agree with Julie, I think she is Autistic, because she sounds just like my son was at a similiar age. He was diagnosed with High Functioning Autism when he was 4. I was pushing for a diagnosis from the age of 18 months, but they kept saying he wasn't on the spectrum because he had good eye contact. It took a doctor to visit him at play group (the third one because the other two refused to have him) and monitor him there for several weeks before I had a diagnosis.
Edward would be into everything, but in a really random way, he never ever played with toys, but would line his sweets up on the floor and no one was allowed to touch them for days. Everything was in lines, or 'herds' as he called them. He would climb the curtains and break anything he could get his hands on, he'd bang his head against the wall, bite himself, suffocate and choke himself. None of which he does now. His behaviour is constantly changing but always pretty random.
Definately, definately keep a diary, this really helped with Edwards diagnosis, as I often forgot things he was doing, and also I kind of became immune to the strange stuff he was doing, and it wasn't until i read it back that i realised just how strange and repetative some of it was.
Edward also walks on tip toes even now, he goes through shoes really quickly, and I try to buy him the flexible trainer type of school shoe.
Edward has the food issues that have been mentioned, he likes to eat the same food every day, golden nugget cereal for breakfast, chocolate spread sandwich for lunch, plain pasta with tuna for dinner. That is a routine thing, but he is always either constipated or has the runs, and is highly sensitive to fibre, he can't eat weetabix or brown bread etc.
Edward takes Melatonin, it is a life saver, I don't know how I would of coped without it, and it is the only medication that works for him, I think we tried just about every other sedative going, even a general anaesthetic doesn't work on him!!
The hightened senses thing is a bit of a give away as well. Edward is very sensitive to load noises, or white noise, he says he can hear light bulbs, and he can smell things no one else can. He can tell me where I have been that day as soon as he gets in the car after school, he says he can smell it, and he's always right.

When Edward was smaller, 3 or 4, he didn't talk at all, but then went from words to sentences and then conversations over a period of 3 weeks. he does often still say the wrong thing though, he will repeat what someone else said, or answer something completely random to a straightforward question.
Something insignificant can happen and then 3 days later he will come and question you about it, and he has a totally different perspective on it than everyone else. Its actually quite interesting though to  hear how differently he perceives things.

I really hope you get some help and find a way to manage, it must be exhausting.
Wishing you much luck
Tina

[jensam]

Hi just wondering does anyone elses children, when they get a reward sticker from shcool put it on the neck or other parts of their body instead of leaving it on their jumpers. Also my daughter puts toys up her jumper when her name is called out to leave.
Just wondering if theres any relevance here.

[bigshabba]

my little boy always moves his stickers off his clothes and puts them on his hands and lips etc.....
he has no diagnoses for the learning difficulties and behavioral problems but he has doose syndrome on top of everything else... the constant battles are so draining, and thats just the ones with the professionals, the ones with Teddy are monumental sometimes